Basic Questions about Debian Dogs

[vtpup]

Sorry to ask such basic questions, but I'm not familiar with the Dogs, and there's nothing on the Wiki about it or stickied here, or in the reviews I've read elsewhere.

Everybody says it has the "look and feel" of Puppy. But that could mean anything from just mimicking the JWM desktop look to being bundled with ROX, Abiword, Seamonkey/PaleMoon etc. But what I want to know is, how similar to Puppy does it work?

For instance, is it loaded into memory, or are programs run off of disk? Does it use sfs files? That kind of stuff. I mean, is it just the Puppy look and feel or does it share Puppy structural innovations that make it different than a stripped version of Debian?

It would be great to have a list of the basic similarities and differences in structure and operation here or in the wiki.

Thanks!

[wiak]

I wonder really how connected in design any distros really are.

One upon a time, as far back as 2003, there was a distro called Slax (and still is) - originally used Slackware components, moved to Debian, and now does both I think

https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=slax

https://www.slax.org/

and in 2010 a distro called Slax Remix became Porteus

http://www.porteus.org/

And from the Slax creator there was Linux Live scripts

https://www.linux-live.org/#changes

and from somewhere or other came Debian Live ... to be honest I've never been quite sure how that fitted in - but had its own initramfs, which used to be used in earliest Debian Dogs.

But I do know Tony (old forum member saintless, who left) originally used Debian Live initramfs to boot his Debian-based root filesystem (but he manually chopped down a Debian iso release back then).

Fred (fredx181) joined in early on and brought with him a modified version of Porteus initramfs to boot his preferred Openbox configurations (saintless was copying Puppy look and feel by adopting JWM/Rox) - used some systems out of Puppy Linux too - such as Puppy Volume monitor, though other ways of doing that such as gvfs with the likes of Thunar or Pcmanfm can be used instead. Rox also provided I think - but kind of secondary filemanager category once Fred took over I'd say with not so good mime support worked on.

Ability to load addons via modules was available from many distros (not just Puppy) so maybe more credit is due to Slax for the overall tricks?

End result, however, is that the DebianDogs have all the frugal install tricks (via Porteus boot) that Puppy itself provides via its own aufs-based initramfs. And for years now Debian Dogs have built their underlying main root filesystem via Debian-provided (or Ubuntu or Devuan) debootstrap scripts and bolted the modified Portues boot onto that. Fred has also since written tons of great utilities for improving the frugal install abilities (and adopted/modified some that were originally designed for Puppy Linux). So you end up with pretty much fully-compatible package management and root filesystem hierarchy as Debian itself (or Ubuntu or Devuan itself depending which debootstrap you started the build process with). And with all the usual Puppy frugal install type facilities - like Slax, and Porteus itself for that matter.

My own impression is that Thomas M of Slax deserves a lot of credit for such live distro designs that utilized aufs, but such designs were already ancient in the UNIX world with Sun microsystem using layered filesystem as far back as the 1980's...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UnionFS

Personally, I think it is fair to say that if you want true apt/dpkg capability from any distro on this forum the Debian Dogs are the best of breed, and you also get the full range of frugal install sfs-load and so on abilities too (though newer DebianDogs are using overlayfs so sfs-load is done by a different under-the-hood methodology. DebianDogs don't use PPM or pkg but they do have utilities that can convert dotpets into deb packages or sfs addons - and can use dpkg/apt to directly make sfs addons as an alternative to official distro package management - I think fredx181 created most of these nice utilities - a Puppy Linux user will find DebianDogs at least as easy to set up and use IMO - indeed I myself moved from Puppy Linux mainly to using the DDs back in 2013 and enjoyed the official dpkg/apt/Synaptics GUI package management provided, as well as the full proper multi-user capability. Helped me develop my own Linux abilities overall immensely. DebianDogs also shave the deb dependencies installed pretty well - and cut out a lot of docs and unwanted language packs I think (but all can be supplied in sfs addons, as can devx type sfs) - so pretty similar organisation to Puppy. However, so easy to install packages successfully in DD that it does tend to swell in size... easier to keep Puppy small in use I think - but maybe not if you install the same upstream repo packages! Reading people discussing Puppy Linux leads me to think that some believe that simple tar.gz based dotpets are the principal package type that Puppy is built from. That used to be the case, but a long time ago when it had its own repos - nowadays, for Debian/Ubuntu-based Pups, PPM is bringing down debs, converting them to format it can keep track off, and then installing them. Dotpets still hanging around out there though for some bits and pieces and user-designed utility apps. And now there is at last a move to adopting dpkg/apt itself in Puppy too.

Saintless no longer here to comment, and been Fred's work and development for many years so his view/comments will be interesting... Worth adding that KLV-Airedale user utilities owe a lot to Fred's additions that he ported across from his DebianDog work.

[rockedge]

KLV-Airedale uses the mechanism to load and unload SFS packages "on the fly" borrowed from DebianDog and modified by @fredx181 for KLV.

This is just one example of DebianDog tech assimilated by KLV-Airedale.

[williwaw]

true apt/dpkg capability from any distro on this forum the Debian Dogs are the best of breed

and you can build a minimal install by using
https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewforum.php?f=46
or
https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic.php?t=644
and utilize apt with the debian repos to install the utilities and apps you prefer

[vtpup]

I guess it's hard to say "what is a Debian Dog like", because there are many and they aren't all the same thing. But clearly there's more than a similar look and feel (and not even always Puppy's usual long used-apps).

So, however, I'm understanding generally, like Puppies they are loaded into and run from memory?

Are they, like puppy, single user systems, or like Debian, multi-user? Do they, like the buntus favor a non root user setup and use su and sudo? Or do they all vary in these things?

ps. I do remember Saintless, and he did once try to get a version going that worked with a real time kernel and would run LinuxCNC for me when I had asked about the possibility on the old forum. I never did get it to work with my particular computer, but was grateful for all the time and effort he put into it.

[williwaw]

So, however, I'm understanding generally, like Puppies they are loaded into and run from memory?

yes

Are they, like puppy, single user systems, or like Debian, multi-user? Do they, like the buntus favor a non root user setup and use su and sudo? Or do they all vary in these things?

set up as a single user, but I believe you can make users in the normal linux fashion, and can install sudo if you like. the su (switch user) command should be easily available, if not already installed should you want to run as a less privileged user or vice versa.

[backi]

@vtpup wrote:

So, however, I'm understanding generally, like Puppies they are loaded into and run from memory?

If you wish to do so (and having enough Ram)......by adding "copy2ram" to the Kernel Line in the menu.lst.

[vtpup]

set up as a single user, but I believe you can make users in the normal linux fashion, and can install sudo if you like. the su (switch user) command should be easily available, if not already installed should you want to run as a less privileged user or vice versa.

Thanks williwaw.

Heh, sudo requirements to do anything are presently driving me nutz on the xubuntu xrdp server I'm working on. I feel like I have handcuffs on at the keyboard, and every time I want to type a word I have to unlock them with a key! That's what comes of using Puppy for 14 years.

[vtpup]

Thanks backi.

[wiak]

Fredx181 is one of these rare individuals that can be bothered polishing a distro such that it is a pleasure to use. Not having the temperament to do so is one of my many weaknesses. Nearest I got to that was a weedog arch64 release, but the 'polishing' pretty much ended after first release because it was sufficiently ok for my own use, and I couldn't be bothered fixing up the unfriendly bits (despite being well aware of the issues I should improve).

Fact is I've never really enjoyed putting distros together. I prefer making system-usable components, so making an initrd suits me fine, but I prefer someone else to do the donkey-work of assembling root filesystem with user friendly desktop arrangement. I'll happily support my boot mechanism... and build scripts.... weedogit builds suit my temperament fine - the upstream repos do the root filesystem building, I prepare them for frugal save persistence installation - auto frugal install as an alternative to boot from iso.

I don't like boot from iso much, sorry Clarity; achieving flexible save persistence is often a headache with iso boot, but is what traditional frugal install is designed for.

My favorite boot 'type' is what rockege and I refer to as pseudo-full-install, confusing the terminology even further. That is an install type where the whole root filesystem is stored as the save persistence folder (so in uncompressed, easily hacked and more easily upgraded format).

[vtpup]

I know the feeling Wiak! In other areas of interest I generally get what I need to done and then move on. There are so many things to do!

I've looked at the dog version collection on DebianDogs and the announcements here, and it seems like most are at relatively low kernel versions compared to what I now need (and the opposite of my needs only a month ago when running a 13 year old laptop).

That's mainly driven by the recent move to 64bit, completely rebuilding a desktop box, and finally upgrading to fast modern wireless cards for a particular project. I now need a 5.10 or higher kernel to run those wireless cards.

I'm very attracted to your method of simplicity and installing only what you need, Wiak, especially for my new server box. But for the laptop probably something with at least a 5.x kernel and fitted out with desktop and apps. So the most likely possibility would be FossaDog.

But the main concern for either would be the ability to ugrade to a 5.10 or higher kernel. So my question is, is there a kernel upgrade path in these debian/ubuntu forks that could get me there?

Sorry to ask so many questions rather than just downloading and trying, but our DSL download speed is 3mbits/sec on a good day in a 3 person household, and a lot of days, lately, aren't "good".

[williwaw]

I feel like I have handcuffs on at the keyboard,

when forced to use a distro with sudo. I have found if you open a file manager as root, you can launch terminals and apps as root from the filemanager.

with similar download speeds here, I have made life easier with uget download manager. I can throttle speed such that others using the connection are not affected when I download and even schedule downloads for the middle of the night.

[wiak]

But the main concern for either would be the ability to ugrade to a 5.10 or higher kernel. So my question is, is there a kernel upgrade path in these debian/ubuntu forks that could get me there?

Sorry to ask so many questions rather than just downloading and trying, but our DSL download speed is 3mbits/sec on a good day in a 3 person household, and a lot of days, lately, aren't "good".

I see that Bullseye uses 5.10. Debian often seems a bit 'old' for my taste (for dpkg/apt distros I prefer Ubuntu-base), but maybe newer kernels are available for it? I don't know. Not sure if Fred builds any ubuntu-based DDs now. DD Bullseye: https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic. ... 736#p14736

Debian Bookworm uses 5.18; I have a feeling fred produced a DebianDog of bookworm (build script maybe)??? Bookworm is Debian testing release.
Ah, here is DD bookworm - will build with 5.18 kernel now I guess: https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic. ... 359#p48359
DD bookworm forum page includes download for a 'test' iso (uses elogind for legacy init script booting, but option to use systemd if you wish). Uses overlayfs (not aufs) but includes sfs-load mechanism that works without aufs.

[vtpup]

I feel like I have handcuffs on at the keyboard,

when forced to use a distro with sudo. I have found if you open a file manager as root, you can launch terminals and apps as root from the filemanager.

Thanks williwaw, I do that too, when I remember to, but often forget and just click on the file manager only to dril down to something I can't edit without starting over from command line sudo.

Also, funny to read the stock Ubuntu take on that:

You should never use normal sudo to start graphical applications as root. Using sudo with graphical apps has the potential to corrupt your environment by allowing root to take ownership of and/or change permissions on critical files that you must own. The forums frequently see panicked requests for help from users who can no longer log in after running graphical applications under sudo.

Oddly, it is the need for sudo that is the problem with that statement. If a user is not locked out by default, it is nearly impossible to get locked out by accident. Sudo is itself basically a workaround for routine denial of access, with inherent dangers of accident and misuse.

OT, sorry, back to Dogs.....

[dancytron]

One difference between Debian Dog and Puppy is that Puppy is designed to only be set up in ways that work. Debian Dog loads SFS files in alphanumeric order and you are perfectly free to do that wrong and screw things up, especially when you remaster.

DD has a much more usable way to make your own SFS files and you can load them in any order you want.

[Neo_78]

What's the official repository of the Debian Dog isos?

Is there an official iso for a Debian Dog version based on Debian 11 "Bullseye" or do you have to use the mentioned build script?

[fredx181]

Delayed reply:
Thanks all for answering. Not much to add by me, except that I need to say that DebianDog development as a "distro release" is not what I'm intented to do anymore (already for a few years, btw).

Several reasons, e.g. interest has dropped and also feel that my capabilities to maintain, test on different hardware, are limited and perhaps DD doesn't really serve it's purpose anymore because there's much other development going on for Puppy to include apt/dpkg and Synaptic, e.g. from @dimkr, @josejp2424 and others and there's the initiative from @wiak to be able to build a frugal install from many *big-boy* distro's.weedogit frugal boot most any distro

The build scripts found on this section of the forum, I'd like to maintain though, as far as I can, for the rest I sometimes like to drop some stones in the water, e.g. build and share a "test" Iso.

I see that Bullseye uses 5.10. Debian often seems a bit 'old' for my taste (for dpkg/apt distros I prefer Ubuntu-base), but maybe newer kernels are available for it? I don't know. Not sure if Fred builds any ubuntu-based DDs now. DD Bullseye: https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic. ... 736#p14736

Yes much newer (5.18) kernel from bullseye-backports can be used on Bullseye. (EDIT: See here: https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic. ... 357#p66357)
Not planning on any newest UbuntuDog.

DD bookworm forum page includes download for a 'test' iso (uses elogind for legacy init script booting, but option to use systemd if you wish). Uses overlayfs (not aufs) but includes sfs-load mechanism that works without aufs.

The choice for with or without systemd is only at build time. Once built it cannot be changed (AFAIK).

EDIT:

What's the official repository of the Debian Dog isos?

Is there an official iso for a Debian Dog version based on Debian 11 "Bullseye" or do you have to use the mentioned build script?

Iso's are on github 'releases', but I must admit a bit chaotic (all over the place).
Creating your own ISO with the build script is very flexible as it gives some basic choices. But I just built and shared a new Bullseye ISO with (newer (5.18) kernel from bullseye-backports), see: https://forum.puppylinux.com/viewtopic. ... 357#p66357

[vtpup]

Thanks Fred, I've been running DD Bookworm since last evening from the test ISO, which I appreciate very much. I don't have the knowledge to be able to assemble one from script. I haven't tried, but I assume you need deep understanding of the structure of any intended OS to be able to understand or make choices.

Back to the ISO, I have a pretty specific limited need for the OS to perform (which it seems to do!). I just needed an Xrdp server (latest) that will run Kdenlive wirelessly via RDP remote desktop to my laptop client. The server only needs to be able to run a few system maintenance utilities (htop, gparted, terminal, file manager, apt or synaptic, etc) mtpaint, VLC and a browser other than kdenlive and Xrdp. It isn't going to do word processing etc. Just a dedicated video editing box with remote desktop capabilities.

The other practical requirement was fast wifi support, in my case for a 5.10+ kernel, iwlwifi driver and firmware for my Intel based card -- which already seem to be aboard. In other words DD Bookworm in ISO seems to have everything needed out of the box, and via apt/synaptic for xrdp and kdenlive. I probably won't be needing sfs files even though I queried about Dogs in general. My Puppy laptop will actually be my daily driver for most common computer tasks, other than video editing. So DD Bookworm is really far more capable than is needed for my limited purpose.

I'm quite hopeful this system will work out. Thank you for all your work!

[fredx181]

I don't have the knowledge to be able to assemble one from script. I haven't tried, but I assume you need deep understanding of the structure of any intended OS to be able to understand or make choices.

Well, ok, the build script it's not for Linux beginners, but I expect that you can can do it easily, anyway when using mostly the default package choices (for the chosen DE option) and choices for additional settings are simple (e.g. you want to run the OS with systemd or not, create 32-bit OS build on 64-bit host, keep man/doc files or not etc...), AFAIK it's much more simple to do than building a Puppy with Woof-CE (IMHO) (but ok, less advanced, I guess).

[wiak]

I don't have the knowledge to be able to assemble one from script. I haven't tried, but I assume you need deep understanding of the structure of any intended OS to be able to understand or make choices.

No, it's not like woof-CE that needs a github repo download and multiple-scripts with complex questions to answer. Rather the dog build script is just a simple shell script with user-friendly GUI that you simply run, and on the whole you can basically simply accept the defaults and it will build the distro for you whilst you drink a coffee or whatever.

Using a build script, at the end of the day, is simply an alternative way to download a distro (either approach involved download bandwidth and time). And as a method using build script has a huge advantage in my opinion - the distro it builds for you is always bang up to date for that particular distro type. The version contents of an iso is stuck in the date and time of its creation; though, depending on its design, you can usually update all its packages, but that ends up as as often doubling the resultant download size and thus the actual iso installation time involved. Also when starting from an iso, that update process of all the newer version of packages ends up in the save folder, so you effectively end up (initially) with a distro that can take up far more than twice what would have been the total frugal distro size (since save folder stored the new packages in uncompressed form) of a new build-script immediately up-to-date build. Of course, you can always do a remaster to bring the resultant on-disk size down again, but that takes even more time.

And of course, a build script does provide you with the opportunity to choose alternative non-core components such as the desktop manager or filemanager you prefer to have, as well as inherenty detailing exactly what is being put into the distro if you care to know about that (but don't need to - you can just run the script without ever looking inside it).

Yes, I'm a fan of build scripts way of producing a distro - much more than I am of static builds released in the form of isos that soon become old. I note for his recent Puppy Linux designs and builds, dimkr, uses upstream git to produce updated builds continuously to try and address the problem of simply relying on an old iso release that inevitably needs updates even if just for matters of distro up-to-date security patches.

[vtpup]

Okay sounds great Wiak. Maybe Weedog would be usable for this. I really don't need a lot of applications. Probably would need xfce to be recognizable by the Griffon compiling script for Xrdp. Probably only basic apps needed -- gparted, console, mtpaint, network manager. I like rox filer and seamonkey browser, but whatever. The only biggies are kdenlive and VLC, and I assume I would use apt to get those after the compilation. I don't need office apps. Just a text editor. I do need a 5.10+ kernel, though.

[williwaw]

Well, ok, the build script it's not for Linux beginners, but I expect that you can can do it easily, anyway when using mostly the default package choices (for the chosen DE option) and choices for additional settings are simple

I have found the script to be user friendly. Guess it lets me make choices in the case I prefer alternatives to some of the apps fred has chosen for the full build.
@fredx181
Is there a use case for selecting the script over the full build if one is working with older hardware or lesser ram etc etc?

[dancytron]

Well, ok, the build script it's not for Linux beginners, but I expect that you can can do it easily, anyway when using mostly the default package choices (for the chosen DE option) and choices for additional settings are simple

I have found the script to be user friendly. Guess it lets me make choices in the case I prefer alternatives to some of the apps fred has chosen for the full build.
@fredx181
Is there a use case for selecting the script over the full build if one is working with older hardware or lesser ram etc etc?

Just like Puppy, the smaller the .squashfs files are the less ram you need to load them into memory (which in DD you do with the edit "copy2ram" (not "copytoram") command in boot menu).