BookwormPup64 10.0.6

[Feek]

"1.) I added a program with Synaptic. 50 packages were downloaded and installed.
2.) In Synaptic I marked it for "complete removal", then executed. Result? 1 package was removed
3.) I opened up console and entered apt autoremove. Result? 14 packages were removed.
4.) 35 packages were not removed."

For larger applications, it might make sense to just download all packages instead of installing them ("download package files only" checkbox in synaptic), then extract them all, and then merge the extracted folders into one and create a .sfs from it.
You can then load or unload it as another layer at any time without installation.
Although, doing this with 50 packages ....

[dimkr]

apt autoremove works great, and Synaptic's behavior is consistent with GNOME Software, Flatpak and other package managers. If you want an auto remove feature in Synaptic, you should ask Synaptic's developers or contribute this feature: it's probably not a priority considering the age of Synaptic.

[wizard]

@mikewalsh

Mike, running BW64 10.0.4 and using your latest Chrome or Chromium Portables, my bookmark import function won't let me choose a file to import.

Thanks
wizard

[vtpup]

apt autoremove works great, and Synaptic's behavior is consistent with GNOME Software, Flatpak and other package managers. If you want an auto remove feature in Synaptic, you should ask Synaptic's developers or contribute this feature: it's probably not a priority considering the age of Synaptic.

Define "works great."

Please, install a program with multiple dependencies in a clean system. Write down the number of deps installed and also the names of some of them. Then do an "apt autoremove". How many those dependencies does it say it removed? Also check to see if any of the named ones you wrote down are still onboard.

I got 50 added, and 15 removed when I did the same. 35 still onboard.

[Marv]

@mikewalsh

Mike, running BW64 10.0.4 and using your latest Chrome or Chromium Portables, my bookmark import function won't let me choose a file to import.

Thanks
wizard

The bookmark files have to be in a 'spot' permissions directory and 'I think' have to have spot permissions. I have a Bookmarks directory in /home/spot and keep them there. Then they are seen by Brave, Slimjet, and un-googled chromium; all run as spot from a mikewalsh portable setup. I forget and run into this from time to time.

[williwaw]

Also check to see if any of the named ones you wrote down are still onboard.

I got 50 added, and 15 removed when I did the same. 35 still onboard.

interesting distinctions between tools....
https://tecadmin.net/difference-between ... apt-purge/

[wizard]

@Marv
@mikewalsh

Not the problem here. Even with those things in place, when you click the "Choose file" button it does not open a file management window (nothing happens).

Thanks
wizard

[dimkr]

I got 50 added, and 15 removed when I did the same. 35 still onboard.

If nothing else needs those 35 dependencies - it removes them. Verified countless times.

[bigpup]

For apt it may be best to use this combined command:

Code: Select all

apt purge package_name 
apt autoremove

Remove the package along with its associated configuration files.
Then target unused dependencies and remove them.

Effectively managing package removal on Linux-based systems requires a clear understanding of the key differences between ‘apt remove’, ‘apt autoremove’, and ‘apt purge’. While ‘apt remove’ uninstalls a specified package, ‘apt autoremove’ targets unused dependencies, and ‘apt purge’ removes the package along with its associated configuration files. Combining these commands as needed can help you maintain a clean, efficient, and well-organized system. Remember to exercise caution and review the changes before proceeding with any package removal

https://tecadmin.net/difference-between ... apt-purge/

[fredx181]

I got 50 added, and 15 removed when I did the same. 35 still onboard.

If nothing else needs those 35 dependencies - it removes them. Verified countless times.

Same for me, apt autoremove works OK from my tests.
@vtpup Can you say what package it was with the 50 dependencies ? (so we can test).

[vtpup]

Steps to reproduce:

1.) clean stickpup created BookwormPup64_10.0.4
2.) apt update in terminal
3.) apt install gnome-software
4.) apt autoremove gnome-software

screenshots:

[vtpup]

Synaptics version of "complete" program removal:

Steps to reproduce:

1.) clean stickpup created BookwormPup64_10.0.4
2.) apt update in terminal
3.) open Synaptics and hit Reload
4.) search and mark for installation gnome-software
5.) install it
6.) mark for "complete removal" gnome-software
7.) remove it

Screenshots:

Screenshot(1).png (49.62 KiB) Viewed 792 times

Screenshot(4).png (51.27 KiB) Viewed 792 times

[vtpup]

I joined Puppy linux forum sixteen years ago after I tried Barry Kauler's remarkable OS. I had been up to that time using Ubuntu Grassic Gibbon, which I found clumsy, with many unexplained problems, the constant need to update and upgrade, things that broke for unexplained reasons, the need to use console commands to solve GUI app malfunctions, bloat to start with that increased inexplicably rapidly over time, slow performance on older systems, version upgrades that broke working programs and functions, the annoying need to sudo everything, etc. etc. .

Barry's Puppy Linux was an amazing phenomenon to me, a tiny fully functioning super fast OS, that ran on "obsolete" computers, with its own package of small utilities that gave me lots of personal control and information about my system.The overriding concept that drove its design was an absolutely elegant and uncompromising search for efficiency. Efficiency was the key to it. Make it small, make it fast, Create new ways to add and remove programs, and load the OS itself into RAM live. Use disk space or CD space or a thumbdrive efficiently. It was brilliant!

Coming back to Synaptic and apt recently reminds me of the bad old days on Ububtu. I just remembered how confused I was back then when I would add a program to try out, note how much precious disk space it took, then "remove it, and find most of that disk space still used up. Then I would try the "completely" remove alternative command in Synaptic, and STILL find the space used up. What did "completely remove" mean, if it didn't actually remove the program I'd added? Nothing made sense.

On the other hand when I installed a .pet or an SFS in Barry's new OS and then removed it.......it got removed.

This seemed logical to me.

[dimkr]

The extra dependencies are not removed because they're optional dependencies of an already installed package (which happens to be Synaptic).

To force their removal anyway:

apt-get autoremove -o APT::Autoremove::SuggestsImportant=0

To make autoremove do this by default:

echo 'APT::AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant "false";' > /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99nosuggests

https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/4241

[dancytron]

i recommend you install bleachbit and set it up to do the cleanup you want.

It's the tool that's made to address your concerns and you can set it up to delete your old log files etc too.

[vtpup]

Thanks for the workarounds.

Will we be explaining these things to all new potential Puppy users?

Maybe in the opening screen there could be an explanation of the need for a console kludge to actually remove programs, and not to trust the bundled package manager to work.

This is important because Puppy will otherwise rapidly grow in memory usage over time to equal the size of the big distros -- removing its old advantages. Synaptic is incapable of removing a program effectively. One out of 50 is the best it could do. 75 megs loaded, 3 megs returned.

[fredx181]

The extra dependencies are not removed because they're optional dependencies of an already installed package (which happens to be Synaptic).

Also perhaps because Debian standard is Gnome Desktop and removing policy for gnome-software is ehm... 'conservative'

To force their removal anyway:

apt-get autoremove -o APT::Autoremove::SuggestsImportant=0

To make autoremove do this by default:

echo 'APT::AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant "false";' > /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99nosuggests

https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/4241

That would be good to be the default (less conservative, better for Puppy I think).

[fredx181]

Synaptic is incapable of removing a program effectively. One out of 50 is the best it could do. 75 megs loaded, 3 megs returned.

If there are 'auto-removable' packages listed (i.e. same if apt auto-remove lists a number of packages) then clicking the Status button will show:
viewtopic.php?p=111207#p111207
EDIT: And just repeating what @dimkr suggested earlier, to fix permanently (so that all (or most?) unneeded deps are removed):
echo 'APT::AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant "false";' > /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99nosuggests

[vtpup]

Synaptic is incapable of removing a program effectively. One out of 50 is the best it could do. 75 megs loaded, 3 megs returned.

If there are 'auto-removable' packages listed (i.e. same if apt auto-remove lists a number of packages) then clicking the Status button will show:
viewtopic.php?p=111207#p111207
EDIT: And just repeating what @dimkr suggested earlier, to fix permanently (so that all (or most?) unneeded deps are removed):
echo 'APT::AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant "false";' > /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/99nosuggests

Thanks Fred.

I did the above procedure with the same test app gnome-software.

75 megs and 50 packages installed

Complete removal in synaptics netted 1 file removed and 3 megs returned

Then with the change to apt autoremove suggested I closed and reopened and reloaded Synaptics, did a status on autoremovable, and it showed 42 files, not 49.

Then in console I did apt autoremove. It also showed 42 files, not 49, and removed those

This leaves 7 packages, and 23 megabytes unaccounted for.

Screensot:

ScreenshotA.png (98.74 KiB) Viewed 698 times

[dimkr]

This is important because Puppy will otherwise rapidly grow in memory usage over time

Extra files on disk don't increase RAM consumption, running applications do. An unused library is just a library, it doesn't contribute to RAM consumption if no running application is using it.

The "recommends" and "suggests" concepts of apt are well documented in apt's man pages, and the default of not auto-removing a suggested package that got installed as a dependency makes sense for some users: for example, if you have a metered connection, it might be a good idea to keep packages around in case something depends on them later, so you don't need to download again. No default will make 100% of users happy but keeping packages around is definitely a very safe default.

EDIT: forgot about this - try to also set APT::AutoRemove:: RecommendsImportant to false, this can explain the small delta

[vtpup]

Okay, I give up. I'm certain new users will be confused by Synaptic's behavior when attempting to remove programs in any kind of intuitive fashion, and their systems will grow unnecessarily without resorting to console and specialized apt commands, which they probably won't know about. If this is deemed acceptable, then that's unfortunate, but okay, it's not my OS.

I do know now how to work it to use console workarounds to do what I want (more or less), but I will probably continue to favor more traditional puppies for daily use for as long as that lineage lasts. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about what a graphical package manager should do, and how easy and intuitive it should be to remove a program. but again, it's not my OS to say anything about.

[dimkr]

Imagine a situation where a user installs application A with hard dependency on B, then installs C, which has an optional dependency on B in the form of a feature that appears only if B is installed. If removal of A triggers automatic removal of B and an optional feature of application C disappear, this can be quite confusing.

[vtpup]

A proper package manager should maintain a database of installed program dependencies and installation timestamps. It should have a function for removing specific programs with dependencies.

Dependencies:
Where two or more packages share the same dependencies, and one of those programs is to be removed, then the dependency stays. When the second program is removed, the dependency is also removed.

Optional Packages
A "suggested" package is not a dependency and should not be called one. It should be called a suggested package, or an optional package, or an add-on.

Where there are two programs in which one treats a package as a dependency, and the other program treats it as an add-on, the rule should be:
1.) If the program listing the package as a dependency is to be removed first, a query and Y/N choice is given to the user that other programs list it as an add-on, and may be affected by its removal
2.) If the program listing the package as an add-on is removed first, the package stays because it is a dependency for the other program.
3.) Where multiple programs share add-ons, and none as a dependency, the Y/N query should be given if one of those is slated for removal.

Apt autoremove is not a program manager. It is a general cleaner console command, and thus is intended to be periodically used across numerous previously installed packages. It isn't smart, it's all or nothing with regard to dependencies and, if flagged for them, suggested packages.

A true Program Manager on the other hand should have the capability to add and remove individual programs, and their appropriate dependencies. It should handle add-ons in a reasonably smart fashion and provide the user with enough information to make choices about removing them.

I realize this doesn't exist presently in Bookworm. But I think that's a reasonable expectation for any mature graphic operating system.

[bigpup]

Imagine a situation where a user installs application A with hard dependency on B, then installs C, which has an optional dependency on B in the form of a feature that appears only if B is installed. If removal of A triggers automatic removal of B and an optional feature of application C disappear, this can be quite confusing.

apt autoremove is spouse to not allow that?

[dimkr]

the rule should be:

If you want apt's defaults to change after so many years, the best place to propose this is probably a Debian mailing list and not the Puppy forum.

If one or two configuration changes make apt behave the way you want, you're unlikely to convince the people in charge.

[vtpup]

the rule should be:

If you want apt's defaults to change after so many years, the best place to propose this is probably a Debian mailing list and not the Puppy forum.

If one or two configuration changes make apt behave the way you want, you're unlikely to convince the people in charge.

I don't want apt's defaults to change, I'm participating in a general discussion about what I think a good package manager logic should do. This may be of interest to others, it isn't a demand or a request, it's just thoughts about how something might be workable.

It is certainly my right to discuss this kind of thing here, and appropriate. I'd appreciate it if you stop trying to shut me up via comments like these or those earlier telling me to program it myself or find someone who will. Discussions of programming and process, and problems in getting programs to do what a normal user might expect are perfectly reasonable to discuss on this forum.

[bigpup]

the rule should be:

If you want apt's defaults to change after so many years, the best place to propose this is probably a Debian mailing list and not the Puppy forum.

If one or two configuration changes make apt behave the way you want, you're unlikely to convince the people in charge.

So Puppy Linux no longer makes programs work the Puppy way?

Puppy is no longer going to modify stuff to make it work the way Puppy wants it to?

All this Linux software is opensource and by the terms of licensing is allowed to be modified.

Puppy has been doing modifications to software for years.

I guess those days are over?

No way should the version of apt offered in a Puppy version get changed and offered with those changes?

Code: Select all

# apt-config
apt 2.6.1 (amd64)
Usage: apt-config [options] command

apt-config is an interface to the configuration settings used by
all APT tools, mainly intended for debugging and shell scripting.

Most used commands:
  shell - get configuration values via shell evaluation
  dump - show the active configuration setting

See apt-config(8) for more information about the available commands.
Configuration options and syntax is detailed in apt.conf(5).
Information about how to configure sources can be found in sources.list(5).
Package and version choices can be expressed via apt_preferences(5).
Security details are available in apt-secure(8).

Who is going to take up the challenge to make apt work the Puppy way?

Anyone that likes to do this kind of code changing?

A Puppy version of apt?

[Clarity]

Even @BarryK shows a need to modify packaging behavior as he is active in doing so, currently, with his distros.

@bigpup's and @vtpup themes in the above posts is correct for this family of distros. If it need addressing in the forum family and it's open source, then exposure, correction, and improvements are in order and consistent with forum's past.

[bigpup]

Here is a topic I started.

Puppy Apt
viewtopic.php?t=10704

[BologneChe]

Wanting to remove all orphaned packages after uninstallation is a whim. The Computer will not suffer too much.