Re: KLA-XFCEpodman 1.1 with container functionality

[wiak]

KLA-XFCEpodman-1.1

This is a special release of KLA-XFCEbase that is expanded to provides modern state of the art container support via "podman", which is compatible with docker containers (and commands) but does not use any background daemon for its operations. I have included a couple of brief tutorial examples of using podman containers in the Desktop-provided cherrytree notebook README to help you understand and use podman containers:

i. a simple example running a tiny alpine commandline-only distro container in a shell.
ii. an example showing the building of an alpine XFCE desktop distro image, running it in a podman container, and accessing it from the host system via vncviewer

Includes FR initrd.gz ver 7.0.1 rc1 released 09Mar2023; includes /mnt/home symlink to bootfrom partition. Fixes major umount bug. Includes Arch Linux packages 09Mar2023 rolling release update.
Has over forty (!) new commandline-based utility apps (a few with very simple yad frontends), so size jumped a bit by around 40MiB. Worth it I think though.

There is a cherrytree README notes file on the Desktop that contains lots of details and tips regarding these additions, including a couple of simple yad GUI frontend templates in code form to help others develop their own.
I am no longer using gtkdialog for new app/utils in FirstRib when possible. Many upstream distros no longer have gtkdialog in their repos at all whereas yad is well supported and good enough for most simple frontends.

873 MiB download size
The main root filesystem is compressed with zstd, which results in larger size but better responsiveness.
Download from sourceforge here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/kla-xfcepodman/
md5sum: 201d0dc915dabc798c948ffd6adf7750 KLA-XFCEpodman-1.1.iso

For some media, such as Ventoy, QEMU, and SG2D, you can also use savefolder, but you need to label partitions appropriately sometimes. For details about boot media label requirements for iso booting, see this recent post: viewtopic.php?p=79395#p79395
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INSTALLATION (Alternative methods):

1. On a Ventoy usbstick with ext4 data partition labelled as 'Ventoy', create a folder named /BOOTISOS and simply put the KLA-XFCEpodman-1.1.iso in there and boot your Ventoy usb stick to use KLA-XFCEpodman.
NOTE: With Ventoy, you can save on demand (called RAM2 mode) back to the 'Ventoy' labelled disk partition into auto-created Sessions folder.
Alternatively, if you have a partition on your system somewhere labelled 'Persistence' you can use save on demand persistence to Sessions folder there.
You can also choose from provided grub menu to do 'direct' writes back to same save persistence (either to 'Ventoy' usbstick labelled partition or to external 'Persistence' labelled partition).
2. Boot via QEMU using, for simple example, commandline:
qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -m 2G -vga cirrus -smp 2 -device AC97 -cdrom KLA-XFCEpodman-X.X.iso -boot once=d
If you attach a qcow2 additional -hda disk, and partition it wish one of the partitions labelled 'Persistence', you can use save on demand into the auto-created 'Sessions' folder there too.
3. Create a normal frugal install. For example:
a. mkdir -p </mnt/partition>/KLA-XFCEpodman
b. mount the iso somewhere and copy all of its contents out and into that KLA-XFCEpodman frugal install directory.
c. Open a terminal at that directory and enter command: ./wd_grubconfig
That should give you suitable grub2 or grub4dos accurate (correct UUID or LABEL provided) stanzas to use (assuming you have a working grub bootloader already installed on your computer).
Once again you can choose to use w_changes=RAM2 save on demand mode, or w_changes="" (default) direct save persistence mode.
4. For more usage modes refer to blog articles at https://tinycorelinux.info

Also read the following for additional useful installation-related information:
viewtopic.php?p=82242#p82242
viewtopic.php?p=75863#p75863

trizen (for AUR) and pacman info:
viewtopic.php?p=81188#p81188
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/pacman

NOTE: You will probably have to replace the mnthome symlinks on Desktop and Thunar bookmarks to suit your own system. Easily done: just copy /mnt/home symlink and drop on your Desktop and in Thunar bookmarks and rename to mnthome or whatever you prefer.

Using this base_podman version has the advantage that after installing the likes of Firefox or Chromium upgrades to the browser will overwrite the previous installation in upper_changes rather than use additonal space to that of any iso-internal version.

INCLUDES small but effective 'eolie' Internet browser; give it a try, you might be surprised
NOTE: I was really only including a browser to help with any html-based documentation reading, but it has proved to be much better than I intended/expected. In my tests, the selected small browser worked well and solidly with all of Youtube, Gmail, Gdrive, BBC news (but bbc video issues), and Facebook. For many, maybe all you need... Also works great for cut'n'paste page contents to cherrytree notes!!! Bound to be some sites it won't work with though, but you can still add your own later via package manager or portable. Note that opened browserTabs show on left side of window.

A FEW OF THE FEATURES:
1. Default timezone UTC. For simple timezone setting use StartMenu -> Settings -> Timezone. NOTE: For fast scrolling down the list provided use PgDn!!!
2. Includes latest FR initrd to show bootfrom partition in Thunar side panel.
3. Autologin as root to XFCE desktop.
4. Save on demand icon and top panel, and available in System Menu, and also asks on Logout if you want to save session.
5. Uses xfce4 whisker menu, power-manager, which allows brightness adjustment by scrolling on battery icon.
6. Ability to run as normal user instead. For example, to make an autologin as spot to desktop:

First prepare the user switch via: Start Menu -> System -> User Switch
Choose who you want to next autologin as - root, spot, or firstrib (password is irrelevant).
Finally, logout with:
Start Menu -> Log out (and choose Log out option from the pop-up)
Note that you have the chance to save on demand between logouts, but you can Cancel doing that if you don't want to save session at that stage (session all still safe in RAM).

Reboots will thereafter continue autologging in as the last user you selected. You can repeat the process at any time to, say, go back to autologin as user root.

NOTE 1: Normal users spot and firstrib are in sudo group with special configuration so they do not normally require password for sudo use. If you ever need passwords, by default user:password is root:root, spot:spot and firstrib:firstrib.

NOTE 2: This distro is designed, thanks to Arch Linux and its full multi-user pacman capability, to be almost maintenance free for some years apart from occasional pacman -Sy update/upgrades to savefolder... No constant and continuous weekly auto-builds intended or needed therefore. Just use it and be at peace.

A working, pretty-close to complete, f_<buildplug> is included, but with pacman package manager you can make it what you like anyway. Note that if you make a new plugin build it won't include some final XFCE-related configs because they were too difficult to script and are easier to do from the GUI (for example, the tiling effects).

Includes save on demand (FirstRib initrd RAM2) capability.

Should work fine with all of Normal frugal install, QEMU, Ventoy, and SG2D including persistence modes, without user boot-time intervention.

Thanks rockedge for iso/boot/grub general arrangement, and fredx181 for save2flash user-script, Puppy Linux dimkr kernel-kit build: currently using huge kernel/modules/firmware from recent Puppy Upup jammy, though you can easily change that to some other Puppy kernel/module combination or use an official Arch kernel/modules (though non-huge Arch kernel requires build of compatible FR initrd containing sufficient boot modules - included FRmake_initrd utility can do that for you though)

KLA-XFCEpodman can also be used and provide persistence on NTFS or FAT32 partitions (by using a <savefilename>.ucimg w_changes savefile; refer to KLV-Airedale for many a FirstRib-related howto). For savefolder use, w_changes boot parameter should however point to a Linux formatted partition.

base-podman VERSION purposively Does Not Currently Include large browsers such as chromium or firefox:

Browsers tend to need upgraded frequently so any supplied in iso become old too quickly and thus result in unnecessary iso bloat.
Since fully-Arch-compatible KLA-XFCEpodman comes with official and complete pacman package manager (think of it like Quickpet...) it is better just to install what you want after first boot and save it to savefolder. Later upgrades will overwrite the old install and thus avoid that upgrade bloat.
To install Firefox, you simply need to open a terminal and (assuming you logged in as user root) enter command:

Code: Select all

pacman -Sy firefox

though, personally, I prefer:

Code: Select all

pacman -Sy chromium

and run that with --no-sandbox (or I suppose, using run-as-spot script; Actually now includes Start Menu -> Chromium-spot desktop item that works well once chromium installed via pacman, but would need to specially configure pulseaudio unix or tcp socket to get audio with that being run from root desktop (isn't done). Firefox works fine anyway once installed). Of course you can also or alternatively use portable apps/sfs addons.

Currently Includes:

1. Cherrytree hierarchical notebook (a fantastic, slim, but powerful, multipurpose application).
I use this for all my own documentation rather than any html or markup based editor. Main reason is I don't like typing too much and you can simply copy and paste from web pages directly into cherrytree (rich text, tables, syntax-highlighted code, and images-support included).
2. Since KLA-XFCEpodman is XFCE4-based, it contains many expected utility apps from that, including file manager Thunar, xfce4-terminal, xfce4-clipboard-plugin, Power-manager/battery/backlight-brightness.
Package xfce4-goodies contains more. See also installable 'goodies' package list: viewtopic.php?p=79669#p79669
3. Mtpaint (also scrot/scrox and xfce4-screenshooter for screenshots)
4. Pulseaudio and pavucontrol
5. Wex for audio, video, webcam, screencasts and video recording. Just use pavcontrol to set the Input and Output levels and expect wex to work straight out of the box!
Uses ffmpeg backend along with the installed pulseaudio system.
6. Gifenc-sel (by fredx181) for making gifs out of videos (integrated to work via button in Wex).
7. Precord for simple audio recording
8. Geany (for text/code editing); also simple L3eafpad notebook; all such apps included are GTK3-based (official Arch repos discontinuing old GTK2 app support, though you can still find some in the unofficial Arch User Repository/AUR).
9. Git (useful for online archiving). AUR helper/package manager/installer Trizen (which should be run as normal user; for example: trizen -S <package_name>). For some AUR apps you will need to install build-dev package (includes gcc compiler) first though (pacman -Sy build-dev). Personally I often just use save on demand mode and just install build-dev in temporary session... no need for devx.
10. NetworkManager with nm panel applet
11. Gtkdialog, yad, gxmessage, for simple GUI scripts and scripting.
12. Gdmap and UExtract as right-click Thunar actions. The gtk3 version of Gdmap was specially compiled from Arch AUR.
13. rsync, nano, alsautils, lame, pciutils, usbutils, xdg-utils, filemnt
14. mpv (AV player)
15. Xournal - properly working with paste image support too!
16. Programming languages installed: Lua, Python, Perl, and Bash of course plus yad and gtkdialog (Everything being GTK+3 versions).
17. Absolutely TONS of new utility apps, which are described in provided cherrytree README notebook.
Including simple yad frontends for wd_simpleHTTP and wd_translate (translates text to locale language).
Network apps such as full tcpdump, ngrep, nmon and too many more to describe here (refer to the README available on Desktop).
Most of these utility apps are very useful and I encourage you to make your own yad GUI frontends for some of them.
18. basic scientific X11 calculator: xcalc-gtk
19. Window 'tiling' should work too:
Tile top > WindowsSuperKey-UParrow etc...

[wiak]

KLA-XFCEpodman-1.1

This is a special release of KLA-XFCEbase that is expanded to provides modern state of the art container support via "podman", which is compatible with docker containers (and commands) but does not use any background daemon for its operations. I have included a couple of brief tutorial examples of using podman containers in the Desktop-provided cherrytree notebook README to help you understand and use podman containers:

i. a simple example running a tiny alpine commandline-only distro container in a shell.
ii. an example showing the building of an alpine XFCE desktop distro image, running it in a podman container, and accessing it from the host system via vncviewer

When in example i. you can, for example, use alpine's package manager apk to add new packages, or simply run command: cat /etc/os-release
to see what Alpine Linux version you are in, and whatever Linux commands you want to explore with...
---------------------------------

I expect I won't be releasing any further work for several months because I have too many other commitments at present. Also, I haven't been following recent KL samba developments since too busy, but providing container support for KLA-XFCE was a priority of mine. I will however consider adding samba support when I get back to this further down the road.

I did a fair amount of research on container methodologies and experimented somewhat, but wanted to use something relevant to current state of the art container practices, rather than some home-grown 'solution', so opted to use "podman", which is basically a pretty much fully compatible replacement for "docker" but more efficient and also smaller to install. Aside from its uses in providing enhanced security for internet-facing apps, it can also provide a lower-RAM resource-efficient alternative to virtual machines such as Qemu for running guest distros on a host system. I won't be expanding on podman use, but there is plenty of instructional material out there for docker, which generally can be used without alteration.

Download at first post of this thread.

[wiak]

This is a release of KLA-XFCEbase that comes with modern container support via "podman", which is compatible with Docker containers (and commands) but doesn't require a background daemon for its operations. The release includes a couple of tutorial examples of using podman containers, including running a tiny Alpine commandline-only distro container in a shell and building an Alpine XFCE desktop distro image, running it in a podman container, and accessing it from the host system via vncviewer.

The release includes FR initrd.gz ver 7.0.1 rc1 released 09Mar2023 and has a symlink to the bootfrom partition. It fixes a major umount bug and includes Arch Linux packages 09Mar2023 rolling release update. There are over 40 new commandline-based utility apps, with a few having simple yad frontends. The root filesystem is compressed with zstd, resulting in a larger size but better responsiveness. The release is available for download from SourceForge and has a size of 873 MiB. The installation instructions include using a Ventoy USB stick with an ext4 data partition labelled as "Ventoy," booting via QEMU, creating a frugal install, and using trizen (for AUR) and pacman info. The release includes a small but effective 'eolie' Internet browser.

Using my Artificial Intelligence I recognise the above as from ChatGPT, Lewis. Indeed looking at your other two posts, I would say the same... How smart are you? Or is it BARD - seems like AI bot stuff to me though. Don't know exactly how you do it though - very clever, but comes across as a bit robotic to me. Will all posts in forums end up reading like written or re-written by ChatGPT sooner rather than later I wonder?!

https://www.aleciahancock.com/blog/usin ... nt-for-you

Content Optimization: ChatGPT can be used to optimize existing content, such as improving readability, making text more concise, and correcting grammatical errors. This can help content creators produce high-quality content that is both engaging and effective.

Come on... admit it! Tell us exactly how you are doing it. No point pretending Lewis! And do you, by any chance, have another forum login name?????! I guess so... Perhaps I am intuitive - perhaps it is simply all too obvious. Not sure if Clarification is likely or illumination is going to reveal this dark mystery into some clarity of light - not sure of the latter, but would make a lot of sense then.
https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=349530

trejan wrote:
Most of those AI generated posts are used for spam. They’ll generate something vaguely legitimate looking as a reply and then edit in the spam a few days/weeks later. It’s an evolution of the previous spammer technique of copying old posts from stackexchange, Reddit and this forum.
Pretty much this - a GPT first post earns a ban.

https://blog.wordbot.io/ai-artificial-i ... rite-text/
https://blog.wordbot.io/ai-artificial-i ... d-chatgpt/

[wiak]

My young son had already requested similar from ChatGPT a week or so ago. This is the request he made and the ChatGPT acknowledgement of the task (I think). I suspect my son got the idea somewhere else - maybe an example use of ChatGPT? Bit off-topic I suppose...

I want you to act as a human-like rewriter. As a rewriter, your task is to take existing text and rephrase it in a way that conveys the same meaning but uses different wording and phrasing. Your goal is to produce high-quality, readable content that accurately reflects the original text while avoiding plagiarism or duplication. You should have a strong command of the English language, as well as an understanding of grammar, syntax, and style. Your rewrites should be creative, engaging, and well-structured, with a focus on clarity and precision. You should be able to work with a variety of texts, including articles, essays, reports, and more, and be comfortable working under tight deadlines while maintaining high quality standards.
As a human-like rewriter, my primary responsibility is to take existing text and reword it in a way that retains its original meaning but uses different phrasing and wording. My aim is to produce high-quality, readable content that accurately reflects the original text while avoiding any duplication or plagiarism. To do this effectively, I must possess a strong command of the English language, as well as a solid understanding of grammar, syntax, and style.

In addition to having a strong command of language, I must also possess excellent creative writing skills, which enable me to create engaging, well-structured, and precise content. Whether working with articles, essays, reports, or any other type of text, my ultimate goal is to deliver a final product that is of the highest quality and meets the requirements of my clients.

Working as a human-like rewriter requires me to be comfortable working under tight deadlines, while also maintaining a high level of quality and accuracy. Therefore, I must have excellent time-management skills, be highly organized, and able to effectively manage my workload.

Overall, my role as a human-like rewriter is to help clients produce high-quality content that accurately reflects their needs and expectations. I strive to achieve this by utilizing my strong command of language, creative writing skills, and a focus on clarity and precision in every project I work on.

[wiak]

So I decided to turn the tables on 'Mr' Lewis Fletcher and ask ChatGPT to analyse the post Lewis 'made':

My request:

I want you to analyse a piece of text. Your goal is to determine if you wrote it or the likelihood you wrote most of it.

ChatGPT response:

Sure, I can help you with that! Please provide me with the piece of text you want me to analyze, and I will do my best to determine the likelihood that I wrote it.

The text I asked to be analysed:

This is a release of KLA-XFCEbase that comes with modern container support via "podman", which is compatible with Docker containers (and commands) but doesn't require a background daemon for its operations. The release includes a couple of tutorial examples of using podman containers, including running a tiny Alpine commandline-only distro container in a shell and building an Alpine XFCE desktop distro image, running it in a podman container, and accessing it from the host system via vncviewer.

The release includes FR initrd.gz ver 7.0.1 rc1 released 09Mar2023 and has a symlink to the bootfrom partition. It fixes a major umount bug and includes Arch Linux packages 09Mar2023 rolling release update. There are over 40 new commandline-based utility apps, with a few having simple yad frontends. The root filesystem is compressed with zstd, resulting in a larger size but better responsiveness. The release is available for download from SourceForge and has a size of 873 MiB. The installation instructions include using a Ventoy USB stick with an ext4 data partition labelled as "Ventoy," booting via QEMU, creating a frugal install, and using trizen (for AUR) and pacman info. The release includes a small but effective 'eolie' Internet browser.

ChatGPT judgement:

Based on the content and language used in the text, it is likely that I wrote it. The text discusses a specific release of KLA-XFCEbase, which is not a commonly discussed topic. Additionally, the language and style of the text are consistent with the way that I have been trained to write. However, without any additional context or information, it is difficult to determine the certainty of my authorship.

Check mate? No, but superficially a little bit evidential anyway. Not check mate cos ChatGPT claimed likely authorship of something I had written too hahaha!

[ally]

lolz

[geo_c]

Check mate? No, but superficially a little bit evidential anyway. Not check mate cos ChatGPT claimed likely authorship of something I had written too hahaha!

So for all the hype, it's easy to see that ChatGPT and its contemporaries will be creating problems that we'll have to weed through for years.

How soon until entire topic conversations are created and populated by nothing but computered generated "dialog?"

Or better yet entire forums created and populated by artificial dialog?

[step]

[...] providing container support for KLA-XFCE was a priority of mine. I will however consider adding samba support when I get back to this further down the road.

I did a fair amount of research on container methodologies and experimented somewhat, but wanted to use something relevant to current state of the art container practices, rather than some home-grown 'solution', so opted to use "podman", which is basically a pretty much fully compatible replacement for "docker" but more efficient and also smaller to install. Aside from its uses in providing enhanced security for internet-facing apps, it can also provide a lower-RAM resource-efficient alternative to virtual machines such as Qemu for running guest distros on a host system. I won't be expanding on podman use, but there is plenty of instructional material out there for docker, which generally can be used without alteration.

@wiak, thank you for this ISO! If there is something sorely missing from my dev tool bag is docker. Now your KLA-XFCEPODMAN ISO gives me hope. I downloaded it and immediately tried a quick OOTB experiment, consisting of
- qemu no persistence, 4 G ram, then in qemu
- git clone repo
- pacman -Sy go make
- make
- make test (this involved docker)

Amazingly (to me) everything worked smoothly until the last step, which unfortunately froze the qemu VM while the containerized test environment was being installed. For an OOTB quick experiment with zero preparation I think it went quite well even if docker (podman) froze the qemu VM. This result motivates me enough to want to repeat the experiment without qemu in the way. So anyway, thank you for this ISO.

[Clarity]

Hi @step

When time permits, would you post your QEMU VM's stanza to the above post or below?

thanks in advance

[wiak]

Thanks @step. I didn't imagine many would be interested in the podman part of this and I was probably right about that
However, I included podman best as I could because I wanted something that I could also experiment with if ever I had time. Alas I haven't had time since and don't know how fully compatible with docker it is. Also, there could possibly be extras needing added for some podman needs I don't know about. I'm glad I made it though since also something I basically wanted in toolbox and was surprised including that podman stuff didn't involve too much bloat.

I was secretly hoping some enthusiastic others might try it and provide more podman help as a shortcut learning process for me too so glad you gave it a quick spin.

[Clarity]

IBM, has produced a very credible series on Virtualizations. It is aimed at those wanting a basic high-level understanding for the various virtualizations we see, today. The varied youtubes they provide are not product oriented, rather, they can a wealthy help to students entering the technology world as well as refreshers for old-timers like myself.

In semiars many years ago, I watched the rise of containers thru interactions with presenters and their demos.

Puppy LInux has recently become active in using one of the best Virtualization products that is lightweigth and simple...QEMU.

VM hypervisors, like this, allow users to carve their PCs into multiple units to operate as if they have all of them right in front of them capable in management by merely moving the mouse from one PC ("virtual PC") to another. The VM(s) behave as real PCs at their fingertips. Each PC is isolated unto itself.

The benefit to this is that CPU and RAM is carved and isolated to each desktop. And what happens in one PC does not affect the other(s).

Containers, on the other hand, do NOT require carving. Thus its one less step that any user need do. And there are various products over the years along with built in securities that are implemented to provide the kind of isolation seen in original VMs.

@BarryK was the first to bring one form of containers to this forum with him personalized version.

Dockers, podman, etc are other ways to do the same container solutions. The difference, IMHO, is that VMs are simple at this point in time, as if one has ever cracked open a PC box, using VMs are just that... while ... containers require more and different understanding as the options to use are tremendous and can be daunting.

This distro, 'could' as it does with podman, provide a QEMU OOTB such that its users could employ ether of these subsystems without a need to install something.

The concept that went into this packaging is the forward thinking we continue to see in the KL series.

One of IBM's very short Youtubes on VMs is here

Enjoy.

[dimkr]

containers require more and different understanding as the options to use are tremendous and can be daunting.

Containers are not virtualization and they're much, much lighter than VMs (because there's no need to run a separate kernel, an init system and so on).

Plus, it's so much easier to get a container running distro x, compared to finding a prebuilt VM disk image of distro x or producing one by installing the distro inside a VM. For example, if I need to test something in Debian Bookworm quickly, all I have to do is podman run --rm -it debian:bookworm-slim bash: getting a Debian Bookworm VM takes so much more time, CPU and RAM.

A Puppy (or Puppy-like distro) with https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox plus a GUI frontend sounds like a good alternative to Flatpak and something many users would appreciate. Applications running in a container feel almost native (minus differences like the GTK+ theme, etc') and run at native speed, all applications running in a VM are trapped in a window (unless you do ugly stuff like waypipe/X11 forwarding), run slowly and have issues with 3D acceleration, especially browsers.

[Clarity]

Thanks

I hope you and others saw the IBM video I shared.

Distrobox is great for installing and running apps that are foreign to the packages in a given distro. But, foreign packages installed via distrobox 'could' have dramatic effects on the running system. This is well known.

The advantages for testing forum distros as we have via QEMU is virtual PCs are isolated away from the running system. Offering no practical ability to damage the running OS systems.

This distro offered by @wiak leads us in to best of all worlds.

[dimkr]

foreign packages installed via distrobox 'could' have dramatic effects on the running system.

But distrobox installs these packages in a container! That's the whole point

[Clarity]

There are reports.

You might find this person's opinion a good one for YOUR records. Youtube video here. Share your findings with him.

Oh, and you might find his views on Wayland good info as well. I think you'll find consistency.

Enjoy

[step]

@wiak, I repeated my previous experiment, this time in a frugal install with grub4dos boot manager - trusting wd_grubconfig to generate the boot stanza, which worked right away. This time podman carried out the test dockerfile without a hitch. The entire process, from frugal install to end of dockerfile took no more than 15 minutes. Well done!

[wiak]

I tend to feel I have been neglecting this one (though I'm inclined to start working on a Wayland/Sway version). Of podman interest:

When I tried out KLA-XFCEpodman the use of podman was completely new and foreign to me, but found it interesting. I did however wonder about mechanisms for running GUI apps from the containers, and didn't find any great answer, though I'm sure there are plenty (I didn't search for long...).

Now I've come across: https://github.com/mviereck/x11docker

which may or may help enlighten me.

Seems to include Wayland relevant information too

Oh well, something else to add to the todo/check list. I think my wife wants me to give up doing this computing stuff; I doubt that will happen, but I expect I'll spend much less time on it - just maintenance and dabbling with some areas that particularly interest me, but which I don't know very much at all about.

[rockedge]

I think my wife wants me to give up doing this computing stuff; I doubt that will happen, but I expect I'll spend much less time on it

mine did as well...until I did take a lot less time working on stuff and started following her around everywhere and showing interest in what she was up too. Did handyman work constantly which can be quite a distraction, in between.

At first she thought it was pretty cool. But before you knew it, there were suggestions like "don't you have any more projects on those computers to do?"

"Huh", I thought to myself.

[geo_c]

At first she thought it was pretty cool. But before you knew it, there were suggestions like "don't you have any more projects on those computers to do?"

"Huh", I thought to myself.

Yes, I can relate, "you spend too much time on the computer" then when I sit down and talk, "I'm not in the mood for chat, I just want to watch this TV show."

OK, I don't watch TV, like absolutely never. But all my computer work isn't just tinkering with OS's, everything I do professionally involves about 4 hours a day on the computer. And if I really did ALL the work I should be staying on top of, it would be more like 6 or 8, but that's not all billable work really, it's just the background work necessary to support the billable hours, and move the projects forward.

When you work in the "artistic" field, and teaching for that matter, it's never about $$ per hour. It would be very discouraging to do the math on that in a realistic way. That's why those fields have to be motivated by something more than profit.

Kind of like building Kennel Linuxes.

Of course it's a balancing act.