The Death of the ISO

[jamesbond]

Void: https://voidlinux.org/download/
Main download item (for bare metal) is ISO.

Debian: https://www.debian.org/distrib/
Main download item (for bare metal) is ISO (either netinst or full).

Ubuntu: https://ubuntu.com/download/desktop
Main download item (for bare metal) is ISO

RedHat: https://developers.redhat.com/products/rhel/download
Main download item (for bare metal) is ISO.

Slackware: http://www.slackware.com/getslack/
Main download item (for bare metal) is ISO

Windows: https://www.microsoft.com/en-au/softwar ... /windows11
Main download item (for bare metal) is ISO

------------

All of these have alternate installation methods (Void, for example, provides rootfs tarball), or cloud-ready installers. But __none__ them distributes a "script" for end-user bare-metal installation.

The closest thing to a script which I see is "Create Windows 11 Installation Media".
It's a 9.6 MB EXE download to create an installation media.
But in order to this to work, one must __already__ be running Windows.
But what is the format of installation media that it downloads?
An ISO.

The second closest thing to a script that I see is Debian "netinst".
But the netinst itself is distributed as .... guess what?
An ISO.

Make of it what you will.

[wiak]

But __none__ them distributes a "script" for end-user bare-metal installation.

...

Make of it what you will.

Yeah... They are all behind the times.

Anyway, to be fair, debootstrap is a set of scripts (albeit only creating a root filesystem).
Hats off to DebianDog for scripting the whole install! Okay, that produces an ISO (as far as I remember), and on the local host system which is fine and useful sometimes, but not necessary of course.

I get the impression some of you are taking my first post too seriously... (though I stand by most of what I say - just I'm not really anti-iso, which may have its place, though img file makes more sense to me nowadays).

You missed Gentoo. Arguably 'distributed' somewhat as an iso...??!? And RedHat 'iso' isn't usually the final distro is it? And Arch Linux??? Void Linux root filesystem tarballs tend to be somewhat old, by the way, especially considering its 'rolling release' nature; no, build it from a script if you want up-to-date build...

[jamesbond]

As requested, additional information:

Gentoo: https://www.gentoo.org/downloads/
Main download item (for bare metal) is ISO.

Arch Linux: https://archlinux.org/download/
Main download item (for bare metal) is ISO.

[Grey]

Arch Linux

There is a paradoxical situation here I'm using ISO to boot. And then I use the commands in the command line to install the system from their (or mirror) server.

Easy
GUI

Here I got even more interesting. I decided to make (using PureBasic) a GUI to run ISO and VDI (and the rest) Qemu formats. First for Arch, then for Fossapup. But I ended up just writing such a construction into the opening of these files. And now they are launched in Qemu just by clicking the mouse in the file manager:

Code: Select all

qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -machine q35 -cpu host -m 8G -smp 4 -boot d -audiodev id=pipewire,driver=pipewire -device ac97,audiodev=pipewire -device virtio-vga-gl -display sdl,gl=on -usb -device usb-table

@Clarity BTW. Please note that to work with Pipewire in new versions of Qemu, you need to register the device driver and its identifier plus the second time after the name of the virtual sound card.

[Clarity]

@wiak I want to share that @jamesbond has, in the past, had a feature in @fatdog where one could start a PXE environment while a LAN PC could boot from it ... never needing to use an ISO/IMG/Frugal. AND the PC would operate exactly as one would expect from normal desktop operations; this includes normal shutdown processing for session management.

This is the closest, IMHO, of what you are describing that a PC would have where normal ("past" as you refer) media packages would not be used.

I have been a proponent of this booting ability since PC manufacturers hardware standards added this in early 1990s

Its just one more of the flavors I see which are currently present in forum technology that seem somewhat closer to your OP.

In fact, I see some promise in possibly introducing or re-introducing PXE use in the forum for user options to manage their home LAN based PCs and maybe other home devices from a central location on the home network.

• Advantage: A singularity to boot all LAN PCs

• Disadvantage: Not well understood by developers/users, even though, this is 30 yo technology.

The hardware ability is present in EVERY PC which has LAN ability on its motherboard and is selectable in all PC BIOS/UEFI seen at PC POST.

Just some additional thought on this thread

[Grey]

Just some additional thought on this thread

In this topic, okay. But don't repeat the story with Ventoy advertising (and something else second there was) all over the forum Use it whenever you like. But remember that not everyone here is constantly running ISO images (it doesn't matter for tests or just to try all existing varieties of vodka distros).

[Clarity]

Thanks. I have actually "announced" that I AM planning to add a thread or posts for ISO booting via the various methods I have found as "best use cases" to make it easy for community to see: Coming soon.

You may have already seen that announcement.

Those who appreciate, as in the past, will find value. Others, not so much as is the case of everything in this community and this world. Thus, I agree with your point that everyone might not find favor.

[Grey]

one could start a PXE environment while a LAN PC could boot from it ...

Comfortable. But. There are usually two factors at work here. A big house with lots of rooms and computers (otherwise the sense of centralization is simply lost). Having money only for a few hard drives for shared storage. If I am a rich American/Australian, then I will buy disks for all my computers and configure them individually. Therefore, many people know about the possibility but do not use it.

[Clarity]

I dont think you understand the technology.

I will try to find the old @FATDOG explanation of PXE implementation. Or maybe @jamesbond or @step will weigh in on current info. Little space is required. For @fatdog space about same as a Frugal or less. Then LAN PC or PC(s) can boot without boot media at will.

Further, the Ventoy PXE implementation only requires ISO files whch we download (or build) anyhow.

No big house needed at all. Even can be used for production use, for test PCs use, for QEMU testing, etc or whatever I user might want.

[Grey]

I dont think you understand the technology.

Maybe But not every student or pensioner with one computer uses downloads/boot via a network card. And it's not about the lack of information.

[wiak]

@wiak I want to share that @jamesbond has, in the past, had a feature in @fatdog where one could start a PXE environment while a LAN PC could boot from it ... never needing to use an ISO/IMG/Frugal. AND the PC would operate exactly as one would expect from normal desktop operations; this includes normal shutdown processing for session management.

Well yes, old news booting a system over the network indeed. I was using Sun Microsystems workstation in university research group back in 1991, and that booted in similar fashion using BOOTP, TFTP and whatever and in 1993 I arranged purchase of a Sun SparcClassic Lunchbox along with their 'Pizzabox' SunSparcstation1 for place I worked immediately after that. I personally then bought these machines off my place of work in 1995. One of them had its OS installed, the other served an OS over the network to the other. I also used PXE itself at another job and at home with PCs back around 2000.

However, these are boot over network mechanisms rather than an install to local machine scenario.. And how many of us boot over the network here now? So lot of effort working on that for next to no use or gain here really. Yes, it could be used, but no, I don't think most here are interested or needing PXE, but maybe I'm wrong - let's see what happens next few years then. (Subscription service to Microsoft Windows or Puppy Linux via network boot service?).

We still used CDs to install OS onto local machines back then too though first time I saw Linux installed (by a colleague in 1991 soon after Linus announced it) was via a few dozen floppy disks rather than an iso. Then I myself got Yggdrasil (LGX) CD in early 1993 (installed on i386 PC), which I still have in a box somewhere (tiny install - even less than the much later MeanPup).

Definitely everyone taking the attack on ISO format much too seriously though - wasting time checking what download format Gentoo uses

ISO is indeed a storage/archive format intended for CD/DVD media I believe - could be split onto floppies if you have enough of these..., and more convenient than cpio to a file or a tape drive I suppose.

By the way, on the subject of obsolescence. I paid 900 pounds sterling to buy all my Sun gear back in 1993, and that was cheap really for the quality of hardware/OS involved. I sold it all via a site called TradeMe here, back in around 2008 and managed to get $25 for it all... I was just wanting rid of it despite its wonderful network boot and so on capabilities, so that was fine.

[Grey]

and more convenient than cpio to a file or a tape drive I suppose.

But what a wonderful sound it was when loading the ZX Spectrum from a magnetic tape. And ISO... so soulless

[wiak]

and more convenient than cpio to a file or a tape drive I suppose.

But what a wonderful sound it was when loading the ZX Spectrum from a magnetic tape. And ISO... so soulless

Yes, music to the ears - come to think of it I had a project using ZX Spectrum and a 'box' I had built to send audio via electrical mains wiring - demo was to save and load programs from one room to the other just by plugging that 'box' in with tape recorder in one room and ZX Spectrum in another part of the building. Very fast baud of course hahaha That was in 1982 or 83. We need that technology here too obviously.

[wiak]

I remember, back in these days when I was more interested in electronics and interfacing, that I designed/built a clean-up-filter-interface (electronics wave-shaping/edge-sharpening) to put between my noisy cassette tape drive and the ZX - made saving/loading much more reliable. It was hit or miss sometimes otherwise.

I think Puppy Linux should bring back cassette tape interface since hard to get CDs nowadays. Loading programs could give us back dialup Internet load speeds and all the nostalgia that brings with it, and all the workaround technology we could develop to make the most of that (community building).

[Grey]

my noisy cassette tape drive

You are probably had a good drive Imagine the spectacle of me connecting wires directly to the speakers of a Soviet tape recorder inside the case. Moreover, the instructions on the cassette indicated: "wipe the magnetic head with alcohol or cologne, adjust the head with a screwdriver... and if it didn't help, take the signal not from the line output, but from the speaker"
Therefore, all the neighbors knew that Elite had started loading.

[wiak]

wipe the magnetic head with alcohol or cologne, adjust the head with a screwdriver... and if it didn't help, take the signal not from the line output, but from the speaker"

But I've done all of these though.

[Grey]

I think Puppy Linux should bring back cassette tape interface since hard to get CDs nowadays.

Indeed, the choice is somehow small. At first I thought it was sanctions. But it seems this is due to a lack of demand around the world. The "symbols" of the ISO format are increasingly difficult to buy at an adequate price. And it won't be easy to find "on every street corner" soon.

[Grey]

I think Puppy Linux should bring back cassette tape interface

https://github.com/dmitry-pavlov/audio-cassette-backup LET's assume it works Read the Features section there.
But this is storage. And we need Puppy to boot and run immediately after turning on the computer. And preferably with a pilot tone and yellow-blue stripes on the screen

[rockedge]

@Grey I have actual experience adapting a regular portable cassette player to work as a tape drive in 1980 on an ALTAIR 680b "home" computer built from pieces in a box. Got the setup to also work using a Digital Corp. PDP-11/70. One had to press the play or play & record buttons manually. Shortly thereafter there was cassette player made for it that the computer now could send the play/record commands to control the "tape drive".

Sure beat the TTY33 teletype machine's paper tape reader/puncher. I was in computer science when the first hard disk drive's came on line and were the size of a large laundry washing machine and the entire computer and parts sat in a sealed off from the public in a climate controlled room with a double floor to run all of the cable.

We can see to this day in certain specific industrial applications where a tape drive is still relevant and used. So why not have Puppy Linux talk to a cassette player?

[Grey]

https://github.com/dmitry-pavlov/audio-cassette-backup

@rockedge There is such an explanation on the link:

The project is open for joining one day only - April 1st, 2023

But experienced and seasoned users of magnetic tape understood everything according to the description and without mentioning April 1.

However, I regret mentioning this "project" Now we will not be able to announce on April 1 next year that Puppy supports tape recording. Imagine, in the announcements section. @Clarity immediately faints with delight, the rest of the forum users are in mild shock
But I screwed up and put our cards on the table

[fredx181]

So why not have Puppy Linux talk to a cassette player?

Weird ! For playing music from cassette player, Ok (as far as it still works).

[rockedge]

For playing music from cassette player, Ok (as far as it still works).

Very exciting is the music cassette tape is making a big comeback here in the USA. Like the vinyl record, it seems the cassette deck player has again proved it's worth in the music world. I still have many cassette tapes that work that are over 20 years old and some over 30 years old. Problem has been finding working cassette decks and players that are component systems for stereo sets. Used to find them at flea markets and all over the place, then they became rare to find at all and worked.

[Grey]

Seriously, it's actually technically not difficult. There are several emulators of the same ZX that can read data directly from the line input of the audio card. And record through the output. I did this (to check the equipment) not so long ago with the help of a Vega tape recorder, assembled once at a defense plant in Siberia and which I still have not been able to "kill" for many years.

Another thing is that there we are talking about 16-128 kilobytes and minutes. And we have hundreds of megabytes and the corresponding time. The main limiter is PATIENCE. You need to have the endurance and patience of a samurai at the foot of Fujiyama.

No, of course some passwords or pictures can be saved. In addition, there were turbo loaders on ZX that read the program pre-recorded on tape at twice or more speed. Such techniques improve the situation. But not enough.

[tammi806]

I recently hardly found BD discs on sale in the city, ordinary single-layer 25 gigabytes (10 pieces in a pack). Only two options, Verbatim and VS. At an obscene price. And of course I'm not going to make images from them after recording - I'm crazy, but not violently crazy.

I can most always find NOS unopened 25 count to 100 count CDs or DVDs in local thrift stores for a $1.00 to $5.00 as everyone where I live seems to think CD/DVD format is useless and dead although I use them for everything.

I have computers that won't boot from a USB Flash drive so CD/DVD created media is the only way to go.
I've never had any CD/DVD media fail to work and I can't say the same for USB Flash drives as I've had several of the fail to work.

It's also very easy to keep track of CDs and DVDs as to what's on them vs USB Flash drives or it is for me.