Futureproofing BionicPup

[r96chase]

Hey guys. It's been awhile.

So, I was making music today and I just had this thought about how we can make futureproof certain Puppies (especially BionicPup) so they last past their supposed EoL date. I bet this has already been done, but has anyone made some more dedicated repos for PPM? Especially those that perserve Bionic Beaver packages? Because I don't know how to make a repo myself. Sorry in advance.

[GMBudwrench]

I’d like to see Bionic supported long term as well. There’s this:

viewtopic.php?t=1170

[bigpup]

In Puppy Linux there is really no term of life.

As long as the Puppy version works for you.
Use it.

In Puppy, when things have changed , software improved, newer versions of stuff is needed to run software, new programs develop, etc......

Someone usually just builds a new version of Puppy, with all of the latest stuff, in it.

[mikewalsh]

I’d like to see Bionic supported long term as well. There’s this:

viewtopic.php?t=1170

Mmm.....kinda depends on what your definition of "long-term" IS. Bionic Beaver IS an LTS release in any case, and won't be hitting EOL until at least April 2023 (another 20 months).

Upgrading a Puppy is not the massive, painful upheaval that upgrading Windoze, or even a 'mainstream' distro can be. Keeping your personal data external, and only 'linking' "my-documents", "Downloads", etc, into /root.....along with running many of the essential programs/apps, etc, in 'portable' format, ensures that most Puppy 'upgrades' are quite a gentle process, really.

I've long since had my kennels set-up in such a way that adding ANY new Puppy to the mix means the entire thing is fully-functional AND fully-customized in not much more than an hour.

Bash scripting is a wonderful thing..!!

(*shrug...*)

Mike.

[GMBudwrench]

@mikewalsh Im setup in exactly that way. I guess what I was thinking was in kernel support, as far as security vulnerabilities were concerned. I’m running Bionic 64 with one of Ozes newer kernels, and set up with my docs folder outside of the save file and a portable Seamonkey. It really isn’t any easier.

[mikewalsh]

@GMBudwrench :-

Really & truly, ever since Pup's been "modular" in nature even kernel upgrades are a two minute job.....and although I hate to say it (I'm certainly not 'dissing' any of our WoofCE/developer team, who spend a lot of their time trying to make the process as painless as possible for those relatively new to Puppy), I honestly find it quicker to do the swap manually than it is to use the GUI 'frontends' provided for the purpose.

"Horses for courses", I guess!

(In truth, I must have had a spell of deja vu, prior to discovering Puppy. My final couple of XP re-installs, I started keeping data on an external HDD AND running lots of 'portable apps' from PortableApps.com. Co-incidentally, many of these also run flawlessly under WINE, far more fuss-free than their big brothers do when fully installed permanently into Redmond's bloated joke of an OS.)

Ain't Linux grand.....Puppy in particular?

(*shrug...*)

Mike.

[r96chase]

@mikewalsh How do I upgrade my BionicPup to FossaPup? USB install by the way.

[bigpup]

Updating Puppy does not work that way.
You cannot update one Puppy version and make it another Puppy version.

If you want to go to Fossapup64 9.5 you have to download the Fossapup64 9.5 iso and do a install of Fossapup.
Now run and use Fossapup.

They are both completely different versions of Puppy.

Fossapup64 9.5 does have much newer of everything, than what comes in Bionicpup64 8.0

[mikewalsh]

@r96chase :-

I was going to say much the same thing, but m'colleague's beaten me to it.

When mainstream distros "upgrade", they download new versions of everything, overwriting the older stuff in the process. Puppy doesn't work like this; every Puppy release is in many ways like a static, 'frozen' snapshot in time. Yes, you can upgrade things, but overall, upgrading is NOT a dynamic, on-going process; there's no Puppy 'team' that spend all their time monitoring & upgrading the contents of repositories, for instance. Anyway; with the stupid amounts of disk space some mainstream distros are starting to want nowadays, they would download far more in the course of an 'upgrade' cycle than we will simply by downloading & installing a new Puppy..!

What I mean by the upgrade process being fairly gentle for Puppians is this; so long as you keep your personal data - documents, photos, videos, music, etc. - on a separate drive (you can sym-link this stuff into /root if you want, it's not a hard & fast requirement), and run as many apps & programs as 'portables' (again, from an external drive if you can), the actual 'upgrade' - downloading/installing a newer Puppy - is mostly inconsequential. IF you get your new Puppy running successfully, you can start using it; if not, well.....you still have your older one to fall back on until you get the new one 'sorted'. In all cases, your personal data is still secure.....and THAT is of far more value to you than any OS will EVER be.

Mike.

[r96chase]

@mikewalsh @bigpup

So, basically, I'd have to use FrugalPup to "upgrade" by frugally installing FossaPup on to the same USB as the BionicPup system or something, correct?

[EDIT] I forgot to mention that I used f2stickpup to install BionicPup. So do I also use the vanilla FrugalPup program instead for adding new Puppies?

[bigpup]

f2stickpup is a one Puppy version install to a USB.
If you use it to do another Puppy version install.
It will delete everything on the USB and start over fresh.

There will be two partitions on the USB.
1st partition with boot loader files. (boot partition)
2nd partition, with bionicpup install, inside a directory named pups. (install partition)

If you want Bionicpup to stay installed and add Fossapup. so you have both versions on the USB.

Run Frugalpup Installer this way and do an install of Fossapup on this 2nd partition.
When completed, both Puppy versions will be on the 2nd partition, with a boot loader menu entry for each one, to use to boot them.

Note:
Be sure you select the correct drive partitions when asked.

When selecting install location.
Select the 2nd partition and the pups directory.

Run Frugalpup Installer main program.
On the main window are selection buttons.
Select the Puppy button, to do the install.
Go through install process, selecting to install to the 2nd partition.
Note:
When selecting the partition to install to.
A window pops up, giving option to make a directory, to put the frugal install in.
I make this directory and usually name it, the name of the Puppy version.
Carefully read that windows info.
Press enter, makes the directory, not the OK button.
complete the install.

When it gets back to the main Frugalpup window.
Select the boot button.
Select the location of the frugal install(s), on the USB stick. (2nd partition, pups directory)
Select the small 1st partition on the USB stick, as location to install the boot loader. (may need to scroll the selection window)
Select the boot loader type.
UEFI
mbr ->legacy bios boot
both

You can install the UEFI for UEFI computers, mbr for legacy bios computers, or both, to boot anything.

The UEFI will also install the needed files, to support secure boot enabled in UEFI.

When you first boot the USB stick, on a UEFI computer, with secure boot enabled.
A process will start, to allow you to install the Puppy security key, to the computer.
It will add this Puppy key, to the other ones, loaded on the computer.

Note:
Not all UEFI computers are the same, for booting from a USB stick.
Some may require secure boot disabled, CSM enabled, or legacy boot enabled, to be able to boot from a USB stick.
So, for those computers.
The mbr boot loader will work, because the UEFI bios, is basically in, legacy bios operation.
Some computer bios setups have option to enable/disable USB booting. That would need to be enabled.

To put more frugal installs on the same USB stick.
Do the complete process again, for the new Puppy version.
When you run the boot loader install.
It will make entries, for all installs it finds, on the USB drive.

Example of one I did:
Bionicpup was on the USB and I added Slacko.

Screenshot(1).jpg (8.64 KiB) Viewed 756 times

[r96chase]

@bigpup

Thanks, but I do have a few questions:
1. Why do I have to eschew the pups directory? It seems kinda handy to me. However, maybe it is an unnecessary layer. I'm not sure.
2. What if I just want Fossapup?
3. If I really want just Fossapup, should I move it out of the pups directory and put the boot stuff and then delete the pups directory altogether?

Again, thanks for your advice. Really.

[bigpup]

Note:
I did some editing to my original post.

Ok did a little more testing.
The frugal installs can all be in the pups directory or not.
So it is up to you.
But I think if the pups directory is there. The installs are going to need to be in it, because you have to tell Frugalpup installer where the installs are located.
If you say in pups directory or top layer of partition, that is where the boot loader install is going to look for them and only there.
It will not look except specifically where you say the installs are.

If all you want is Fossapup.
I would just run f2stickpup and do a completely new fresh setup for the USB.

If you already have both on the USB.
Delete what you do not want.
Run Frugalpup Installer Boot install to update the boot loader menu to the change.

[mikeslr]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
My colleagues have talked about "upgrading". There really isn't any reason to upgrade from Bionicpup64 to FossaPup64 unless you have reason to use the applications which FossaPup64 has and BionicPup64 doesn't; or the newer versions of applications which BionicPup64 has but without the newest 'Bells & Whistles' which may not be available under the BionicPup64 version.

Beyond that, there are only two good reasons to make any change: (1) Security and (2) to keep up with the latest demand a website can make that you have to use a recent Web-browser if you want to access that site.
The latter is easily accomplished as long as MikeWalsh and fredx181 continue to publish portable web-browsers. Follow the instructions, try out the new version. If it works replace the old. If it doesn't work, post the problem to the appropriate thread and, hopefully/usually, receive a reply with either a fix or an explanation of how you can make one.
The former --Security-- is primarily accomplished by swapping your current kernel for one which has been compiled to counter potential* exploitable flaws discovered after the kernel used with your Puppy was published. This Section provides links to newly available kernels, viewforum.php?f=65. Bionicpup64's Menu>Setup>Quickpet provides an application to Swap kernels. But I've never used it. I do it manually: download and unpack a kernel 'package'. Within are two files: one named vmlinuz-something; the other named kernel-modules-something. Look at your current Puppy's system files. In your case, you'll have among them one just named vmlinuz and another named zdrv_bionicpup64_8.0.sfs.
Rename the new vmlinuz to just vmlinuz and rename kernel-modules-something to zdrv_bionicpup64_8.0.sfs. Substitute those for your current and you've swapped kernels.
But you don't have to use a kernel-package. Any 64-bit kernel will work with any recent 64-bit Puppy (and if your computer supports 64-bit architecture any recent 32-bit Puppy); and any 32-bit Kernel will work with any recent 32-bit Puppy. So, if you downloaded the Fossapup64 ISO, you could mount it and 'steal' its vmlinuz and zdrv.sfs using the former 'as-is' and the latter after renaming it.
There is, however, one caveat. To communicate with your computer's hardware, a kernel needs both drivers and firmware. Drivers have to be compiled for the kernel with which they are to be used. But firmware doesn't. So kernel-modules-something always has drivers. The post linking to it will tell you if you also need firmware and provide a link to an fdrv.sfs containing them. [An fdrv.sfs has to be renamed like the zdrv.sfs]. But once you have an fdrv.sfs stored somewhere, you can use it with any 'kernel-package'.
Recommended: don't discard the old vmlinuz and zdrv.sfs until you're certain that the new will work with all your computer's hardware. Drivers take time and resources to compile and bandwidth to distribute. Drivers for 'believed-obsolete' hardware are dropped to make way for new hardware drivers.
So, while upgrading isn't necessary, updating is possible and easy.
Although it hasn't happened yet, there is one situation where updating won't suffice. Web-facing applications communicate with websites employing SSL libraries. These are themselves dependent on glibc libraries and an operating system can only maintain one version of glibc. Currently websites merely check to see if your web-browser uses an acceptable version of SSL libraries. But if there's an update to SSL, an older Puppy's glibc may not support it. [You'll find posts about palemoon-with-tweaked-glibc and others about running web-browsers in a chroot. Both are work-arounds because you can't update glibc libraries without substantially modifying a Puppy which modification may break its builtin applications].

-=0-=-
The operative word is potential. No one has ever reported an actual exploit; and properly deployed a Puppy is almost invulnerable. There's a thread about that.

[r96chase]

@bigpup
Thanks again.

@mikeslr
To be fair, both security and having the latest bells and whistles are very good reason why I want to either futureproof BionicPup through contributing a repo for using Bionic Beaver packages well beyond the supposed EoL date of 2023, or switch to FossaPup, because I feel doing a manual kernel for me seems painful and might break the system if I'm not careful.

In conclusion, I might just switch to FossaPup for the daily driver, but keep BionicPup just in case if I want to go back.

[mikeslr]

Hi r96chase,

I do it the reverse. Bionicpup64 is still my daily-driver. But Fossapup64 is on my hard-drive and my boot-manager offers booting into it as a choice. I follow the Fossapup64 threads and keep it up to date; or just download & store interesting applications in /sdX/vault/Fossapup to explore later.

I should have mentioned. Before swapping kernels, I create a folder and copy the current working version into it. I can always boot up a different/working Puppy if I have to revert. So there's no risk and the entire process takes less than 5 minutes.

A repo for Bionicpup's libraries after it reaches EOL would be a good idea. Adding a repo to Puppy Package Manager is, at best, difficult. With pkg-cli,https://oldforum.puppylinux.com/viewtop ... c5#p985531, on the other hand, it can be done as easily as with apt-get. But I have no idea how to set up a repo it can use, other than --of course-- via web-browser downloads = without dependency checking.

[? Web-site grabber of Ubuntu's Search pertaining to Bionicpup? e.g. https://packages.ubuntu.com/bionic-updates/ and the pages which following the links will eventually find, e.g. https://packages.ubuntu.com/bionic-upda ... d/icecast2].

As to which, I case you didn't know. After EOL ubuntu doesn't shred the contents of the repos of a no longer supported version. They just move them to here, http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/, somewhere. Seems to be organized alpha-numerically, with little thought for which package was used by which version.

[mikewalsh]

@mikeslr :-

Although it hasn't happened yet, there is one situation where updating won't suffice. Web-facing applications communicate with websites employing SSL libraries. These are themselves dependent on glibc libraries and an operating system can only maintain one version of glibc...

Actually, Mike, if I'm totally honest I'm not so sure about that statement.

Back when I was using battleshooter's glibc-2.20 upgrade package, I noticed one thing. The upgrade package didn't overwrite all the older Glibc modules.....what it DID do was to add the new alongside the old, but overwrite the

Code: Select all

ld-linux.so.2

....."linker". As I understand it, this is the item that 'connects' the system with the rest of the 'new' packages. I believe it also overwrote the

Code: Select all

libstdc++.so.6

....."linker", as well. Everything else was in self-contained directories.

I can't help wondering if there's a way to have the two different "installs" sitting alongside each other, and knock up a script that would 'present' the one you wanted to use TO the system in such a way that it looks like it's the only one?

Food for thought, perhaps..?

--------------------------

With regard to the kernel swap, did you know you can actually perform this "in-situ" while the Pup in question is still running? I've done this successfully before now, and I think it's only possible due to the way Puppy copies to, then runs in RAM for the session. I don't think you could do this with a 'full' install, but with a frugal it seems to work a treat.

Just re-boot, and you're running on the 'new' (or older!) kernel.

----------------------------

@r96chase :-

In all fairness, kernel swaps aren't a regular thing for anybody, here in Puppyland. Unless you specifically need support for a relatively new piece of hardware, or are super-paranoid about security exploits, then 99% of the time, if all your hardware works and your system is stable, why bother?

It's very much an individual decision.

T'other Mike.

[bigpup]

For kernel swapping, there is a program for that.
Do not understand why people seem to not want to use it.
Change kernels
viewtopic.php?f=157&t=3228

It is as hard as downloading a new kernel tar ball and placing the new files from it in input slots.
The change_kernels program does everything else.
Changes file names as needed.
Makes a rollback copy, if you want to go back to the old kernel.
Swaps out the old kernel with the new one.
Reboot to use the new kernel.

[mikewalsh]

For kernel swapping, there is a program for that.
Do not understand why people seem to not want to use it.

It's nowt to do with not WANTING to use it, bigpup. I have done in the past; it does exactly what it's supposed to do.

I just found, over time, that it's actually quicker for me to do this particular task manually, that's all.... I must at long last be leaving my Windoze dependence on GUIs behind..!

(After all these years, it's about bloody time, an' all...) Nah, I use GUIs for some things, the terminal for others, and still others I just dive into the file-system and do what I need to do. I have a "system" - weird as it may seem to others - which just "works" for me.

(*shrug...*)

Mike.

[peebee]

Ubuntu maintains repository for end of life versions
viewtopic.php?p=26681#p26681